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>that music was anything but immediately understandable, and that you =
needed
>grounding in a culture at least, and in some cases a quite explicit =
training, to
>"understand" music.
Yep, excellent point. It took me YEARS to get anything much out of jiuta =
music -- now it's one of my favorite traditions. While some music has a =
certain immediate accessibility, for instance honkyoku, I think it is =
only through long deep study--or constant immersion--that we really come =
to terms with it.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Thomas W Hare=20
To: Shakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu=20
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: RE : Music as Language
I've been following the thread on music as language with interest.=20
I had a prof in grad school, Bill Malm of the University of Michigan, =
who would get visibly irritated when people brought up that old saw =
about music being the international language. He would go on to use it =
as a foil for a lecture he gave on noh music that was intended to show, =
at first at least, that music was anything but immediately =
understandable, and that you needed grounding in a culture at least, =
and in some cases a quite explicit training, to "understand" music. (I =
put "understand" in scare-quotes because the issue of what constitutes =
understanding itself is worth thinking about, although I won't go into =
that here.)=20
I think Malm's point is a good one. Classical traditions are highly =
self-conscious and require explicit training as well as listening =
experience for one to pass beyond an understanding that is based merely =
on the lure of exoticism: "Wow, what a wierd sound! Cool!" That exotic =
thing cloys quickly.=20
Popular tradition MAY be somewhat less demanding in terms of explicit =
training, but they probably require a solid experiential sense of =
context before they mean much. (Here the problem of "World Music" =
comes up, and the controversy about whether it really is a kind of =
transnational or transcultural music or whether it's merely the =
exploitation of "native" instruments within what is intellectually and =
aesthetically simply Western pop. I won't get more into that either =
here.)=20
But back to the question of music and language. I think there are =
some really fascinating problems here. For one: language is inherently =
involved in communicating meaning. (And of course one could get into =
the deconstructive maze with the mention of "meaning," but let's not go =
there.) Let's say for the present purpose that meaning involves, among =
other things, the telling of stories. Now, how would that relate to the =
comparison of language and music. There are musical pieces like =
Beethoven's Sixth Symphony and Shika no t=F4ne which can be heard to =
tell a story (however simple), but if that's all we can get out of the =
comparison between music and language, then it doesn't get us too far. =
The stories are far too simple to be of much significance by themselves, =
and the quality, the complexity, the wonder of the music seems to =
overwhelm them very quickly. So where else can the comparison take us? =
(I must admit to a professional interest here, since I'm going to teach =
a course in the second term this year on literature and the arts, and =
the comparison between music and literature is something I want to put a =
good deal of time into.)=20
Yoroshiku,=20
Tom Hare=20
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<DIV>>that music was anything but immediately understandable, and =
that=20
you needed</DIV>
<DIV>>grounding in a culture at least, and in some cases a quite =
explicit=20
training, to</DIV>
<DIV>>"understand" music.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Yep, excellent point. It took me YEARS =
to get=20
anything much out of jiuta music -- now it's one of my favorite =
traditions.=20
While some music has a certain immediate accessibility, for instance =
honkyoku, I=20
think it is only through long deep study--or constant immersion--that we =
really=20
come to terms with it.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dthare@Princeton.EDU =
href=3D"mailto:thare@Princeton.EDU">Thomas W=20
Hare</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3DShakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu=20
=
href=3D"mailto:Shakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu">Shakuhachi@communicatio=
n.ucsd.edu</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 09, =
2002 9:19=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: RE : Music as =
Language</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I've been following the thread on music as language =
with=20
interest.=20
<P>I had a prof in grad school, Bill Malm of the University of =
Michigan, who=20
would get visibly irritated when people brought up that old saw about =
music=20
being the international language. He would go on to use it as a =
foil for=20
a lecture he gave on noh music that was intended to show, at first at =
least,=20
that music was anything but immediately understandable, and that =
you =20
needed grounding in a culture at least, and in some cases a quite =
explicit=20
training, to "understand" music. (I put "understand" in =
scare-quotes=20
because the issue of what constitutes understanding itself is worth =
thinking=20
about, although I won't go into that here.)=20
<P>I think Malm's point is a good one. Classical traditions are =
highly=20
self-conscious and require explicit training as well as listening =
experience=20
for one to pass beyond an understanding that is based merely on the =
lure of=20
exoticism: "Wow, what a wierd sound! Cool!" That exotic =
thing=20
cloys quickly.=20
<P>Popular tradition MAY be somewhat less demanding in terms of =
explicit=20
training, but they probably require a solid experiential sense of =
context=20
before they mean much. (Here the problem of "World Music" =
comes=20
up, and the controversy about whether it really is a kind of =
transnational or=20
transcultural music or whether it's merely the exploitation of =
"native"=20
instruments within what is intellectually and aesthetically simply =
Western=20
pop. I won't get more into that either here.)=20
<P>But back to the question of music and language. I think there =
are=20
some really fascinating problems here. For one: language =
is=20
inherently involved in communicating meaning. (And of course one =
could=20
get into the deconstructive maze with the mention of "meaning," but =
let's not=20
go there.) Let's say for the present purpose that meaning =
involves,=20
among other things, the telling of stories. Now, how would that =
relate=20
to the comparison of language and music. There are musical =
pieces like=20
Beethoven's <U>Sixth Symphony</U> and <U>Shika no t=F4ne</U> which can =
be heard=20
to tell a story (however simple), but if that's all we can get out of =
the=20
comparison between music and language, then it doesn't get us too far. =
The=20
stories are far too simple to be of much significance by themselves, =
and the=20
quality, the complexity, the wonder of the music seems to overwhelm =
them very=20
quickly. So where else can the comparison take us? (I must =
admit=20
to a professional interest here, since I'm going to teach a course in =
the=20
second term this year on literature and the arts, and the comparison =
between=20
music and literature is something I want to put a good deal of time =
into.)=20
<P>Yoroshiku, <BR>Tom Hare </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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