Wow,
This has gotten nasty so I'm withdrawing. I need to clarify Nelson's
misquote. I never said anything about "sensations" of timelessness.
There's an important distinction. I most certainly was not discussing
anything that can be attained permanently via surgery (ouch).
Due to that last comment, I'll also apologize for speaking of a subject
such as this on the internet and giving opportunity for abuse.
Bill
__________________________
>
> Bill wrote earlier about the experience and sensation of timelessness.
> It's
> a wonderful ability, but not unique. People spontaneously experience it
> regularly. It can be learned and cultivated in short order with little
> dedication and/or training. Further, it can be permanently attained
> through
> surgery. So while I think the ability to switch into timelessness is
> valuable, enjoyable and probably healthful in moderation, I'm a little
> wary
> about adopting it as a lifelong state.
>
> I'm far less interested in the definition of enlightenment than the
> fact
> that numbers of people have dedicated their lives to this attainment,
> when
> in fact, there is little common knowledge or understanding of the task
> or
> it's result.
>
> Since you and I have persisted in this exchange, I'll ask you. Have
> you or
> anyone you know achieved something you call enlightenment?
>
> The notion of enlightenment as advocated by Buddha achieved two things:
> Release from the cycle of birth and death and the lessening of pain,
> discomfort and unhappiness while alive. The first arises from the Hindu
> problem of how to change caste. By continual practice one could be
> reborn to
> higher and higher castes and then finally to transcend life on earth
> altogether. The second was a more direct salve for the unpleasant
> vagaries
> of life.
>
> Both reasons are based on the notion that life on this planet sucks.
> The
> whole point was (is?) to get off-planet. And the ticket? The mysterious
> enlightenment.
>
> So it isn't surprising that there arose a cult specifically interested
> in
> attaining enlightenment. Zen is the stripped-down, hot-rod model of
> Buddhist, with the attainment of enlightenment as its single objective.
> Monastic life, individual and dedicated effort were the norm.
>
> Then Zen washed up on American shores and the concepts of enlightenment
> started getting furry--even optional. Zen Lite.
>
> This is Riley's point about blowing Zen--you can't do it any old way
> you
> want.
>
> Nelson
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Tue Jan 06 2004 - 14:09:32 PST