Re: [Shaku] Western pitch - was "Everything you wanted to know about re-meri"

From: Nicholas Pierotti (eurydice@cruzio.com)
Date: Sat Jan 08 2005 - 09:12:12 PST


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Speaking as a former Math Teacher; from the standpoint of Calculus,=20
combined with the ability of the human finger to close a flute hole,=20
there should be a continuous and infinite number of note shades between=20=

the two terminal points of CLOSED HOLE and OPEN HOLE. In either=20
direction, you can infinitely approach a fully opened hole or a closed=20=

hole. It's the same principle as a slide whistle. Of course you can't=20
notate such things. Maybe that's what they mean when they talk about=20
the sound of the infinite...

On Jan 8, 2005, at 11:02 AM, Dan Gutwein wrote:

> I am not a physics or a math expert, but over the years I have given=20=

> the
> subjects of audio cognition vs. music theory some serious attention.
> When talking about the difference between theory and practice (and =
that
> goes for all theories of music in all cultures) one must consider the
> neurological limits of human hearing and the fact that minds (with
> respect to all sensory phenomena) tend to construct extremely =
elaborate
> beliefs and theories based upon incomplete sensory information or
> sensory information that is too complex for the nervous system to
> accurately take in. Quite often, music theories describe pitch=20
> relations
> that exceed measurable neurobiological thresholds, theories that have
> been of great utility to academics but have been far less useful to
> practicing musicians who develop their own practical strategies for
> dealing with complexity. Since practicing musicians tend to spend =
more
> time playing and less time theorizing, they tend to adopt the
> explanations of theorists regarding what they do. This can give them
> status in the academic community but their amazing neurobiological
> strategies remain mysteries for cognitive scientists to unravel 20-30
> years later. When considering the perception and musical reproduction
> of pitch intervals, one must consider two important truths.
>
> (1) The accuracy of perception changes in relation to register because
> the basilar membrane provides us with less effective spatial maps of
> pitch fundamentals as pitches move toward the lower and upper=20
> registers.
> I am deliberately avoiding the notion that the mechanics of hearing =
has
> anything to do with comparing pitches, because that entire process=20
> takes
> place in the mind and is completely subject to top-down =
neuro-cognitive
> revisionism. We won't even deal with the fact that the basilar =
membrane
> less effectively maps pitch fundamentals when it is confronted with a
> number of complex spectra at once, spectra emanating from different
> sources (i.e. polyphonic music, or music played in a noisy=20
> environment.)
> Consider this problem. Let us divide the octave (simply the difference
> between any pitch and its 1st harmonic - i.e. double the frequency)=20
> into
> 1200 equal parts or cents. That gives us the usual 100 cents between=20=

> 12
> equally tempered half steps. For our example we will use A 220Hz and =
A
> 440Hz - the lower octave of a 2.3 to 2.4 shakuhachi. The entire =
octave
> is only 220 cycles wide, therefore each half step (100 cents) is a
> difference of 5.45 cycles (1200/220). A quarter tone would be 2.72
> cycles and half of that would be 1.36 cycles. In order to "perceive"
> the difference between tuning systems or between close pitches=20
> belonging
> to different systems we must perceive fundamentals that differ by =
these
> small amounts. How is this done? By hearing "beat frequencies" - the
> amplitude swells produced by two acoustic waves canceling each other
> out. Beat frequencies permit hearing the differences between
> simultaneous pitches that are really quite close in frequency. If the
> beat frequencies are slower than 20 cps, (as in the case of the
> differences describe above and the difference we are talking about)=20
> then
> the basilar membrane cannot even represent them, and at that point =
were
> into the new world of cognitive studies. This leads to paragraph 2=20
> where
> monophonic and polyphonic pitch discrimination merge.
>
> (2) If a performer, theorist, or your average Joe is asked to compare
> pitches when listening to a single monophonic source (for example solo
> shakuhachi playing honkyoku), Joe's brain (not his inner ear) must
> construct a memory of pitch no.1 while at the same time the=20
> wave-lengths
> of the evolving wave-train continue to enter his inner-ear. Even=20
> though
> there is a location on the auditory cortex (A1 or Heschel's gyrus) =
that
> physically maps the basilar membrane, Joe's mental construction is not
> (I repeat) is not located there. Remember, the incoming data is=20
> located
> there. Joe's mental map of pitch no. 1 is not an audio tape or the
> brain's version of a digital image-map in any sense. The vast =
majority
> of neuroscientists and cognitive scientists agree that these memories
> are nothing more than neurological "switches" that "turn on" learned
> concepts - received theories! In other words, I hear note no. 1.
> (Sound keeps coming in.) A1 continues to register gradual changes in
> the wave-length of the spectrum entering the ear. At some point
> (determined by my unique biology) a threshold is exceeded, my brain
> flips the switch, (a top-down concept does not flip the switch -=20
> biology
> flips it) and my belief system concludes that the pitch difference
> actually IS the Pythagorean comma, tsu vs. tsu-no-meri, or some other
> thing I've learned.
>
> I'll never forget the time my young niece was on a drive with us out =
in
> the country and we passed one lonely cow out in the distance - she =
said
> "Aunt Chris - look at the doggy."
>
>
>
>
> _____________________________________________
>
> List subscription information is at:
> http://communication.ucsd.edu/shaku/listsub.html
>
>
  What is morally wrong can never be advantageous, even when it enables=20=

you to make some gain that you believe to be to your advantage.

  =96 Marcus Tullius Cicero

--Apple-Mail-53-195596890
        charset=WINDOWS-1252

Speaking as a former Math Teacher; from the standpoint of Calculus,
combined with the ability of the human finger to close a flute hole,
there should be a continuous and infinite number of note shades
between the two terminal points of CLOSED HOLE and OPEN HOLE. In
either direction, you can infinitely approach a fully opened hole or a
closed hole. It's the same principle as a slide whistle. Of course you
can't notate such things. Maybe that's what they mean when they talk
about the sound of the infinite...

=20

On Jan 8, 2005, at 11:02 AM, Dan Gutwein wrote:

<excerpt>I am not a physics or a math expert, but over the years I
have given the

subjects of audio cognition vs. music theory some serious attention.

When talking about the difference between theory and practice (and that

goes for all theories of music in all cultures) one must consider the

neurological limits of human hearing and the fact that minds (with

respect to all sensory phenomena) tend to construct extremely elaborate

beliefs and theories based upon incomplete sensory information or

sensory information that is too complex for the nervous system to

accurately take in. Quite often, music theories describe pitch
relations

that exceed measurable neurobiological thresholds, theories that have

been of great utility to academics but have been far less useful to

practicing musicians who develop their own practical strategies for

dealing with complexity. Since practicing musicians tend to spend more

time playing and less time theorizing, they tend to adopt the

explanations of theorists regarding what they do. This can give them

status in the academic community but their amazing neurobiological

strategies remain mysteries for cognitive scientists to unravel 20-30

years later. When considering the perception and musical reproduction

of pitch intervals, one must consider two important truths. =20

(1) The accuracy of perception changes in relation to register because

the basilar membrane provides us with less effective spatial maps of

pitch fundamentals as pitches move toward the lower and upper
registers.

I am deliberately avoiding the notion that the mechanics of hearing has

anything to do with comparing pitches, because that entire process
takes

place in the mind and is completely subject to top-down neuro-cognitive

revisionism. We won't even deal with the fact that the basilar membrane

less effectively maps pitch fundamentals when it is confronted with a

number of complex spectra at once, spectra emanating from different

sources (i.e. polyphonic music, or music played in a noisy
environment.)

Consider this problem. Let us divide the octave (simply the difference

between any pitch and its 1st harmonic - i.e. double the frequency)
into

1200 equal parts or cents. That gives us the usual 100 cents between
12

equally tempered half steps. For our example we will use A 220Hz and A

440Hz - the lower octave of a 2.3 to 2.4 shakuhachi. The entire octave

is only 220 cycles wide, therefore each half step (100 cents) is a

difference of 5.45 cycles (1200/220). A quarter tone would be 2.72

cycles and half of that would be 1.36 cycles. In order to "perceive"

the difference between tuning systems or between close pitches
belonging

to different systems we must perceive fundamentals that differ by these

small amounts. How is this done? By hearing "beat frequencies" - the

amplitude swells produced by two acoustic waves canceling each other

out. Beat frequencies permit hearing the differences between

simultaneous pitches that are really quite close in frequency. If the

beat frequencies are slower than 20 cps, (as in the case of the

differences describe above and the difference we are talking about)
then

the basilar membrane cannot even represent them, and at that point were

into the new world of cognitive studies. This leads to paragraph 2
where

monophonic and polyphonic pitch discrimination merge. =20

(2) If a performer, theorist, or your average Joe is asked to compare

pitches when listening to a single monophonic source (for example solo

shakuhachi playing honkyoku), Joe's brain (not his inner ear) must

construct a memory of pitch no.1 while at the same time the
wave-lengths

of the evolving wave-train continue to enter his inner-ear. Even
though

there is a location on the auditory cortex (A1 or Heschel's gyrus) that

physically maps the basilar membrane, Joe's mental construction is not

(I repeat) is not located there. Remember, the incoming data is
located

there. Joe's mental map of pitch no. 1 is not an audio tape or the

brain's version of a digital image-map in any sense. The vast majority

of neuroscientists and cognitive scientists agree that these memories

are nothing more than neurological "switches" that "turn on" learned

concepts - received theories! In other words, I hear note no. 1.

(Sound keeps coming in.) A1 continues to register gradual changes in

the wave-length of the spectrum entering the ear. At some point

(determined by my unique biology) a threshold is exceeded, my brain

flips the switch, (a top-down concept does not flip the switch -
biology

flips it) and my belief system concludes that the pitch difference

actually IS the Pythagorean comma, tsu vs. tsu-no-meri, or some other

thing I've learned.

I'll never forget the time my young niece was on a drive with us out in

the country and we passed one lonely cow out in the distance - she said

"Aunt Chris - look at the doggy."

_____________________________________________

List subscription information is at:

 http://communication.ucsd.edu/shaku/listsub.html

=
</excerpt><fontfamily><param>CaslonOpenFace</param><bigger><x-tad-bigger>
What is morally wrong can never be advantageous, even when it enables
you to make some gain that you believe to be to your advantage.

 =96 Marcus Tullius Cicero</x-tad-bigger></bigger></fontfamily>

--Apple-Mail-53-195596890--

_____________________________________________

List subscription information is at:
 http://communication.ucsd.edu/shaku/listsub.html



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