--- Joel Taylor <joel.g.taylor@comcast.net> wrote:
> Justin this is very interesting. I wonder how
> "consistent" this -25 cents on
> the meri pitches is....How are you doing your
> measurements?
Hi Joel
I'm using a program called Melodyne. It is useful, if
not frustrating! But it seems to do the job (except
now I am trying to fix my computer as the program has
stopped working!!) My method is actually a bit
complicated, involving a spagetti of lines on my note
pad, and many many measurements!
> From what I've
> been able to gather by just listening to recordings,
> and by talking to the
> few teachers I've taken lessons with, the meri
> pitches are always flat by
> some amount, but that amount varies to some degree
> according to player and
> piece.
So far I am focusing on Yokoyama playing dokyoku. I
know that ancient pieces I have been taught have
different pitches, and I have been wondering when the
pitches changed. Was it Watatsumi who changed them? I
would love to know about this if anyone has any
information.
I think sometimes tsu no meri is more than
> 25c flat...
Generally I think it is a play between what I would
think of as the tsu-meri pitch and the ro pitch.
Oftenn that means being flatter, even hovering around
in between, and often waving up and down. But that is,
waving up to the "limit". It is that limit that I am
trying to identify. That is, the way I am seeing it is
that there is a pitch which is there, in the scale,
and we often go below it. But, for example, we will
start at it, then go down and up etc. or, start below
it, but generally come up to it at some stage. Do you
know what I mean?
Here are some results in more detail. I remind you
that they are only preliminary:
A B C D
Sanya sugagaki 77 62
Tamuke(1) 84 72
Tamuke(2) 85 73
Yamagoe 94 76 82 75
Koku 74 78 65
Reiho 71 72 70 60
E F G
Sanya sugagaki
Tamuke(1) 64
Tamuke(2) 67
Yamagoe 61
Koku 84 85? 66
Reiho ?
RO to TSU-MERI (otsu)A (kan)B
RE to U (otsu)C
RE to CHI-MERI (kan)D
CHI to RI-MERI (otsu)E
CHI to HI-MERI (kan)F
GO-NO-HA to SAN-NO-HA G
> But...*usually* (but not always) I think I hear a
> good Perfect 5th between
> tsu no meri and ri no meri and a good P4th between
> tsu no meri and U.
How many cents would that be?
> Another thing to think about is the difference
> between Ro dai meri and Ri
> vis a vis pitch....
J K
Sanya sugagaki
Tamuke(1) 163
Tamuke(2) 181
Yamagoe 194? 198
Koku 191 203
Reiho 174 197
RO-MERI to RO(otsu)J
RI to RO (otsu)K
RE to CHI-MERI (kan)D
Don't take those figures too seriously! Ro-meri
commonly varies (in these pieces) by up to 50cents.
That is, on moment it may be played even 208 cents
below ro, and later on in the piece 134 cents below,
and so on. I put this down to the nature of the
technique - it is difficult to control the pitch of
that note. And, naturally I would expect it to often
be too sharp, especially when played briefly. But from
looking the data (and listening of course!) it does
seem to me that Yokoyama is intending the pitch to be
around 200 cents below, like ri.
Sometimes it seems to me that
> Ro dai meri is being
> played quite flat by some of the master players.
From these results of Yokoyama as you can see, it is
Status: RO
usually sharp (for these recordings) though maybe not
intentionally.
> However,...I don't really think there is any reason
> to suspect either a
> precise quarter tone
I guess that are actually eighth tones
> or any particular just
> intonation scheme in honkyoku,
> any more than in gamelan tunings....
> but please post more of your observations re
> this...it's an important
> subject.
Thanks. I'm glad to hear another enthusiastic voice!
And let me know too if you hear of any such data or
recearch like this in Japanese music, as it could make
my work a lot quicker!
Best wishes
Justin.
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