The distinction here is interesting - I recently heard someone say that
pioneers and settlers have a bit of a different perspective.
Do you think that's the distinction you are making?
I have read some of the earlier usenet history list discussions from
Bruce's archives and I found some of your observations, chuq, helpful,
and it did seem that you had both the experiences and perspective
that I would attribute to a pioneer!
> >Obviously, I don't have the same viewpoint as you, but I think that
> >just the fact that the early Usenet history has some not-so-much-fun
> >periods doesn't make it any less a history.
>
> Very true. good point.
>
But maybe some of the pain is helpful to know about as well -
because it is still a struggle to have usenet extend to new domains
and areas - for example - I've tried to have it more available to
workers and commonfolk who often don't yet even know about the net.
And I've found I've been getting a lot of flack from some of the
people on the net who have different mechanisms of trying to discourage
a new direction or effort.
And it has gotten me down at times - because I know that as a
pioneer one must be bold (the lesson I learned from the Flint
UAW pioneers who formed the UAW)
So to hear some of the difficulties and how they were weathered
is an important part of the history which will help others
trying to follow on the amazing path that you folks have blazed.
> >>I'm not asking you to regurgitate all those painful memories.
>
> I'm not as worried about the painful memories as how they bias what I say.
> Even something that I was (relatively) unininvolved in as the Grand Renaming
> has a bunch of problems for me, because I'd proposed effectively the same
> thing about 18 months earlier and been burned to a crisp. It was later taken
> up again by Rick and Spaf to completion (Rick and Mark? I'm going senile.
> sigh), and while it was nice to see it happen and to be a trailblazer
> ("ahead of his time" and all that stuff...), there's also a feeling on my
> part that if people had just listened, we could have saved everyone an
> amazing amount of pain.
It was helpful to hear about this experience - it does seem that
those who propose something that is new get either ignored or attacked,
etc. And that it would help to have some who are aware of this
problem who provide a bit of support and comfort.
When I talked with some of the Flint UAW pioneers, they were certain
that the hard battles they had waged had been useless - and they
were a bit demoralized because of this perception - when in fact
they had been responsible for very significant breakthroughs, but
there was no acknowledgement that they ever got - so their
accomplishments and the results of their hard battles were seemingly
hidden from them.
I wonder if that's been some of the experience that usenet pioneers
have felt (and settlers!) - that you have worked very hard, and
fought lots of battles, but it seems that it's not clear what
the results have been (results isn't exactly the word I'm looking
for )
>
> I've got some areas of the net that have left me rather bitter, which is
> something I'm slowly learning to deal with and put behind me. I feel real
> hesitant about laying stuff out about those areas because I don't believe
> it'll be fair or objective, or even necessarily accurate, either because of
> internal self-editing or because I want to avoid discussing stuff I know
> I'll regret once I work it out of my system. I don't want to go down as a
> mean-spirited, bitchy, crotchety old phart, and there are days that's how I
> feel.
>
But are there lessons that you can share without going into the details?
Would that be helpful as a way of sorting it all out without it being
to personal?
> >Perhaps
> >record them somewhere with one of those do-not-open-until-I'm-dead kind
> >of attachments, but at least allow the story to be told at some point.
>
> As most (honest) folks on this list will concur, I've been dead more times
> than any of us can count, and always come back. My tendency to wait until
> things got too serious to deal with and then leav in a rather noisy way for
> a visible exile was by far my worst on-line personality trait, and one that
> took forever to deal with (it was also, probably, the onyl time I ever
> agreed with Tim Maroney on anything, which would probably surprise the hell
> out of him). Usenet doesn't need really intense leaders that flame out, but
> people who can keep the monster in perspective and give it some stability by
> example, and there are definitely times when I'm my own worst enemy. Or used
> to be, I'm not sure yet...
>
But reading some of the history of the ARPANET leaves one with the
impression that flaming has had a good effect, as well as a negative
one. (Up to that point I just thought flaming was harmful.)
Are there examples of where flaming has been helpful in the development
of usenet too? ?
> I guess it comes down to being fascinated about reading a good history of
> the last 15 years or so and being scared shitless about what's going to be
> written about me...
>
>
But isn't it a question of what the achievements have been and how?
If those telling the story are doing it to learn from it how to go forward
then somehow the story will be constructive.
What I found in researching the story of the building of the UAW by
the grassroots people in Flint was that they were often bitterly
opposed to each other, but in the battle things were clarified that
served to make it possible to go forward.
Breaking new ground, where no path before has been forged, means that
there are no models to build on and thus it is by its very nature a
battle against the old in order to go ahead instead of backwards.
> I definitely know I wouldn't be particularly glowing about my performance
> at times.
>
>
But maybe that's the sign of a healthy leader? Someone who learns from
what happens. And I have found your observations helpful, so I hope
you won't discount them.
?
ronda
P.S. I've recently offered to do a talk on the evolution of usenet for
an upcoming education conference in Michigan - for MACUL (Michigan
Association of Computer Users in Learning) - I applied to do the
talk late - after the due date for applications but it was accepted
anyway. The talk I proposed was "The Evolution of Usenet News: the
Poor Man's Arpanet" - and it's scheduled for March 11 or 12 in Detroit.
So I'll need to begin to go back over the material from Bruce's
Archives because when I read it thru recently, it did raise some
questions that I thought I'd like to have clarified.
So it's been good to see that the list has gotten going again
and the Thanksgiving Party was a treat :)
Also, the upcoming issue of the "Amateur Computerist" newsletter
which hopefully will be out by Christmas, is devoted to Usenet
News (articles that were written last Spring and summer mainly
before I knew about the treasures available in the Archives
Bruce has set up) - but hopefully it will be a helpful introduction
for people who don't know about usenet - or a chance for people who
do know about it to appreciate it a bit more :)
So chuq and you other pioneers on this list, it's important what
you have done despite the fact that it doesn't seem at first sight
as if anyone recognizes it or appreciates it. And somehow those of us
who hope to help to continue clearing new ground will benefit from
knowing as much as possible about how the path was forged this far.
ronda
This page last updated on: Jul 1 09:16