Nelson,
Ok, if you reduce all debate about the meaning of enlightenment to
problems with fad obsessed American culture there's not much I can say
(though that's never stopped me before !). The debate about the nature
of enlightenment has been going on for centuries (certainly before the
great schism between the northern and southern Chan schools of China)
and "my quibble" was based more on a response I envisioned that Dogen
might have to your rather dogmatic description of enlightenment (though
you seem to imply that the only relevant basis for a debate on the
nature of enlightenment is in the context of problems with sloppy
thinking in American Zen). Dogen was perhaps no less dogmatic; his dogma
however was different than the Rinzai types which is what I'm assuming
your basing your definition on. Perhaps you think Dogen was some king of
weak thinking, fashion chasing excuse for a Zen practitioner. Perhaps.
>Karl,
>
>
>
>>the corresponding implication (I'm probably
>>again reading too much into your statements) that Zen practice is waste
>>of time for those who don't "get it".
>>
>>
>
>I don't know if it's a waste of time as American Zen seems to put a
>substantial premium on the style aspect of the whole endeavor.
>
>But, I'll say it this way. It's my feeling that Zen as practiced in America
>isn't particularly efficacious is producing a substantial, permanent and
>life changing experience compatible with common concepts of enlightenment.
>The success ratio is lower than most fad diets.
>
>However, as a method for stress reduction, organizing ongoing life
>experience, giving meaning, coherence and identity to one's existence many
>people swear by Zen--Zen as a lifestyle choice.
>
>
>
>>I guess
>>veiled beneath my questions is that some might quibble with your
>>assertion that enlightenment can be assessed in a manner similar to
>>pregnancy
>>
>>
>
>I don't mind your quibble at all as it points out part of the problem with
>American Zen. It's been individualized to the extent that there is no
>comprehensive understanding of what Zen is and why one might practice it.
>Everybody's got their particular spin, understanding and interpretation such
>that any inherent deep wisdom in the practice is lost. What Americans tend
>to practice is their personal take on Zen. Which begs the question of why do
>Zen at all. If it's something which can be arbitrarily modified to fit
>personal tastes, then it ends up being a matter of fashion.
>
>
>Nelson
>
>
>
>
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