Re: on vibrato

From: Herb Rodriguez (Herb.Rodriguez@Colorado.edu)
Date: Wed Aug 20 2003 - 09:19:43 PDT

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--=====================_93119802==.ALT

I was at a book store last night and came across a book on Zen gardening.
It had a quote on the first page that I thought might fit in with this
discussion on vibrato. It was attributed as simply a Zen saying:

"Do not seek to follow the footsteps of the masters. Seek what they sought."

Herb

At 08/19/2003 01:26 PM, you wrote:
>Riley, in my post I didn't say that there is only one way to play
>honkyoku, and that is without yuri. I said that someone like Yokoyama
>or Kakizaki (or yourself) has a high level of authority, and that
>therefore these players' opinion has weight. But notice that I
>continued "We have to ask, what is the value of that authority--how to
>balance that with our own taste or desire to express our inner selves."
>I could have phrased it as "with what we think is the best way to play
>the piece." As you say, when one has the confidence to play a piece as
>one sees fit...I would add that gives one authority. Perhaps you're
>implying that the bamboo, or our innate understanding of honkyoku, or
>music, or life in general, is the final arbiter, but if so where's the
>center? I'm as iconoclastic as the next person, maybe moreso, but I
>think it's best to temper that with a certain amount of unquestioning
>trust in one's teachers. That's just me though...
>Rather than argue semantics, though, I'll restate my point--that, while
>there are *perhaps* no absolutes in art or anything else, there are
>differences that I would say are hierarchical, that is differing in
>quality. How else could we look at a Jackson Pollock painting or a late
>Picasso drawing and differentiate them from superfically similar works
>that lack the inherent greatness of the former? I recently saw a photo
>of a green anodized bar of aluminum with some pieces cut out that had
>just sold for over $300,000, which I guess makes it great art. Maybe
>I'm not subtle enough, but the value in something like that for me is
>more around $3.95 plus tax.
>In other words, the statement "everything is relative" is itself an
>absolute statement.
>
>Peter
>
>
>--- Riley Lee <riley@rileylee.net> wrote:
> > Hello Peter, et al
> >
> > What Kakizakai via Yokoyama via Watazumi plays and what Yamaguchi
> > played are different pieces, performed within a different stylistic
> > framework, using different techniques. There is nothing mysterious or
> >
> > profound about this.
> >
> > What works in one context doesn't necessarily work in another. To
> > compare the above in a discussion of vibrato, at least amongst us
> > shakuhachi people, is like comparing the proverbial apples with the
> > oranges. This has, as far as I can see, little to do with absolute
> > values in art or anything else, really.
> >
> > "Honnin no Kyoku", on the other hand, may very well have a great deal>
> > to do with absolute values in art.
> >
> > I hope that you play the Watazumi/Yokoyama/Kakizakai pieces as best as
> > you can, whether in front of an audience or on your own. I also hope
> > that you may eventually have the confidence and conviction in your own
> > playing to follow or to ignore your teachers' advice as you see fit,
> > whether that means putting in or leaving out vibrato/yuri.
> >
> > Did you know that there is an old 'SP' (75rpm) recording of San'an, on
> > which Watazumi is using an exaggerated amount of vibrato throughout the
> > entire piece - every phrase! - created with a kind of komi-buki
> > technique? I've not heard it; Yokoyama told me about it once upon a time.
> >
> > Here is question for us all:
> > If, at at lesson with Kakizakai, we (heaven forbid!) used vibrato while
> > playing a Watazumi/Yokoyama piece, AND we played it as well as or
> > better than Watazumi or Yokoyama could have played it, what do you
> > think Kakizakai's reaction would be?
> >
> > This is not about using as our musical authority, our own taste or our
> > desire to express our inner selves. How does one define 'better' than
> > Watazumi or Yokoyama? If you could play like that, then Kakizakai would
> > know immediately.
> >
> > Here are two more questions:
> > How many of us know who Watazumi's teacher was? Other than perhaps, a
> > passing curiosity, how many of us care?
> >
> > Best regards, Riley
> >
> > > Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 10:32:46 -0700 (PDT)
> > > From: Peter H <voxsonorus@yahoo.com>
> > > To: Shakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu
> > > Subject: RE: on vibrato
> > > Message-ID: <20030818173246.35032.qmail@web21206.mail.yahoo.com>
> > >
> > > This touches on the age-old question of whether there are any absolute
> > > values in art, or whether it's all "de gustibus non es disputandum"
> > > (since we're throwing in foreign language quotes ;-)). Yes, one hears
> > > this phrase "honnin no kyoku," but I'm sure that if I played, say,
> > > Honshirabe at my next lesson with either of my Dokyoku teachers, and
> > > used lots of yuri (vibrato, I prefer the Japanese term as vibrato is so
> > > general and yuri is unique to shakuhachi), that I'd either be stopped
> > > right away and told to not use it, or else told so after I'd finished.
> > > That's authority. We have to ask, what is the value of that
> > > authority--how to balance that with our own taste or desire to express
> > > our inner selves.
> > > I like your description of Goro sensei's playing, but I'm also told to
> > > do certain things when playing Dokyoku for an audience, and I'm sure
> > > all of us will play a piece differently depending on many things,
> > > including whether we're alone at home or playing for others. But I
> > > would never use yuri because I'm playing for others and not use it
> > > because I'm playing the piece as suizen. For me it goes deeper than that.
> > > My piano teacher was a student of a student of Max Reger's, who was
> > > considered an expert on Bach (he's the one who said "Bach is Anfang und
> > > Ende aller Musik"), and he invoked that lineage when convincing me that
> > > I should not use the sustain pedal at all when playing Bach. Later,
> > > when I heard Andre Watts in concert and he used a lot of pedal in a
> > > Bach piece, I thought it ruined the piece. Had I been initiated into a
> > > deeper understanding of Bach, or just brainwashed into intolerance?
> > > (BTW I was also told that in Bach's day, the thumbs were not
> > > used--imagine playing about 95% of his keyboard music without using the
> > > thumbs! But since this doesn't affect the end result, I wasn't required
> > > to do that).
> > >
> > > Peter
> > >
> > >
> > Sound of Bamboo
> > PO Box 939
> > Manly 1655 NSW Australia
> > Tel: +61 (0)2 9976 6904
> > Fax: +61 (0)2 9976 6905
> > mobile: +61 (0)414 626 453
> > www.rileylee.net

--=====================_93119802==.ALT

<html>
<body>
I was at a book store last night and came across a book on
Zen gardening. It had a quote on the first page that I thought might fit
in with this discussion on vibrato. It was attributed as simply a Zen
saying: 
"Do not seek to follow the footsteps of the masters. Seek what they
sought." 
Herb 
At 08/19/2003 01:26 PM, you wrote: 
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Riley, in my post I didn't say that
there is only one way to play 
honkyoku, and that is without yuri. I said that someone like
Yokoyama 
or Kakizaki (or yourself) has a high level of authority, and that 
therefore these players' opinion has weight. But notice that I 
continued "We have to ask, what is the value of that authority--how
to 
balance that with our own taste or desire to express our inner
selves." 
I could have phrased it as "with what we think is the best way to
play 
the piece." As you say, when one has the confidence to play a piece
as 
one sees fit...I would add that gives one authority. Perhaps you're 
implying that the bamboo, or our innate understanding of honkyoku,
or 
music, or life in general, is the final arbiter, but if so where's
the 
center? I'm as iconoclastic as the next person, maybe moreso, but I 
think it's best to temper that with a certain amount of
unquestioning 
trust in one's teachers. That's just me though... 
Rather than argue semantics, though, I'll restate my point--that,
while 
there are *perhaps* no absolutes in art or anything else, there are 
differences that I would say are hierarchical, that is differing in 
quality. How else could we look at a Jackson Pollock painting or a
late 
Picasso drawing and differentiate them from superfically similar
works 
that lack the inherent greatness of the former? I recently saw a
photo 
of a green anodized bar of aluminum with some pieces cut out that
had 
just sold for over $300,000, which I guess makes it great art.
Maybe 
I'm not subtle enough, but the value in something like that for me
is 
more around $3.95 plus tax. 
In other words, the statement "everything is relative" is
itself an 
absolute statement. 
Peter 
 
--- Riley Lee <riley@rileylee.net> wrote: 
> Hello Peter, et al 
> 
> What Kakizakai via Yokoyama via Watazumi plays and what Yamaguchi
 
> played are different pieces, performed within a different stylistic
 
> framework, using different techniques. There is nothing mysterious
or 
> 
> profound about this. 
> 
> What works in one context doesn't necessarily work in another. To
 
> compare the above in a discussion of vibrato, at least amongst us
 
> shakuhachi people, is like comparing the proverbial apples with the
 
> oranges. This has, as far as I can see, little to do with absolute
 
> values in art or anything else, really. 
> 
> "Honnin no Kyoku", on the other hand, may very well have a
great deal> 
> to do with absolute values in art. 
> 
> I hope that you play the Watazumi/Yokoyama/Kakizakai pieces as best
as 
> you can, whether in front of an audience or on your own. I also hope
 
> that you may eventually have the confidence and conviction in your
own 
> playing to follow or to ignore your teachers' advice as you see fit,
 
> whether that means putting in or leaving out vibrato/yuri. 
> 
> Did you know that there is an old 'SP' (75rpm) recording of San'an,
on 
> which Watazumi is using an exaggerated amount of vibrato throughout
the 
> entire piece - every phrase! - created with a kind of komi-buki
 
> technique? I've not heard it; Yokoyama told me about it once upon a
time. 
> 
> Here is question for us all: 
> If, at at lesson with Kakizakai, we (heaven forbid!) used vibrato
while 
> playing a Watazumi/Yokoyama piece, AND we played it as well as or
 
> better than Watazumi or Yokoyama could have played it, what do you
 
> think Kakizakai's reaction would be? 
> 
> This is not about using as our musical authority, our own taste or
our 
> desire to express our inner selves. How does one define 'better'
than 
> Watazumi or Yokoyama? If you could play like that, then Kakizakai
would 
> know immediately. 
> 
> Here are two more questions: 
> How many of us know who Watazumi's teacher was? Other than perhaps,
a 
> passing curiosity, how many of us care? 
> 
> Best regards, Riley 
> 
> > Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 10:32:46 -0700 (PDT) 
> > From: Peter H <voxsonorus@yahoo.com> 
> > To: Shakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu 
> > Subject: RE: on vibrato 
> > Message-ID:
<20030818173246.35032.qmail@web21206.mail.yahoo.com> 
> > 
> > This touches on the age-old question of whether there are any
absolute 
> > values in art, or whether it's all "de gustibus non es
disputandum" 
> > (since we're throwing in foreign language quotes ;-)). Yes, one
hears 
> > this phrase "honnin no kyoku," but I'm sure that if I
played, say, 
> > Honshirabe at my next lesson with either of my Dokyoku
teachers, and 
> > used lots of yuri (vibrato, I prefer the Japanese term as
vibrato is so 
> > general and yuri is unique to shakuhachi), that I'd either be
stopped 
> > right away and told to not use it, or else told so after I'd
finished. 
> > That's authority. We have to ask, what is the value of
that 
> > authority--how to balance that with our own taste or desire to
express 
> > our inner selves. 
> > I like your description of Goro sensei's playing, but I'm also
told to 
> > do certain things when playing Dokyoku for an audience, and I'm
sure 
> > all of us will play a piece differently depending on many
things, 
> > including whether we're alone at home or playing for others.
But I 
> > would never use yuri because I'm playing for others and not use
it 
> > because I'm playing the piece as suizen. For me it goes deeper
than that. 
> > My piano teacher was a student of a student of Max Reger's, who
was 
> > considered an expert on Bach (he's the one who said "Bach
is Anfang und 
> > Ende aller Musik"), and he invoked that lineage when
convincing me that 
> > I should not use the sustain pedal at all when playing Bach.
Later, 
> > when I heard Andre Watts in concert and he used a lot of pedal
in a 
> > Bach piece, I thought it ruined the piece. Had I been initiated
into a 
> > deeper understanding of Bach, or just brainwashed into
intolerance? 
> > (BTW I was also told that in Bach's day, the thumbs were
not 
> > used--imagine playing about 95% of his keyboard music without
using the 
> > thumbs! But since this doesn't affect the end result, I wasn't
required 
> > to do that). 
> > 
> > Peter 
> > 
> > 
> Sound of Bamboo 
> PO Box 939 
> Manly 1655 NSW Australia 
> Tel: +61 (0)2 9976 6904 
> Fax: +61 (0)2 9976 6905 
> mobile: +61 (0)414 626 453 
>
<a href="http://www.rileylee.net/" eudora="autourl">www.rileylee.net</a></blockquote></body>
</html>

--=====================_93119802==.ALT--

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