[Shaku] Re: shakuhachi V1 #570

From: RbtJonas@aol.com
Date: Sun Apr 11 2004 - 09:00:15 PDT

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--part1_196.281a9e64.2daac58f_boundary

In a message dated 4/11/04 3:38:20 AM, shakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu=20
Peter Ross writes:

> It doesn't do any good to get too serious about the zen connection to=20
> shakuhachi.
> I think the overly serious ones are mostly beginning players who get
> caught up in trying to out-zen each other.=A0 They need to be poked at
> a bit.=A0 Some of us have been playing for over 30 years now and it
> gets tiresome to hear all that brain twisting talk.=A0 You have to put
> in many years and thousands of hours.=A0 There's no way around it.
>=20

Greetings. I agree with Peter that one only gets better by actually playin=
g=20
the instrument. I also agree with him that sometimes, what passes for=20
serious Zen talk can be merely a disguised form of machismo peacocking. Th=
is=20
masculine strutting can be hidden in the talk of anyone who is on a spiritua=
l=20
path--Buddhist, Jewish, Christian, New Age, Muslim or whatever. I'm up, yo=
u're=20
down: Who has the biggest, deepest. . . .what? My equanimity, wisdom,=20
insight, peace, clarity, compassion or whatever! is deeper than yours. =20

On the other hand, such "I'm right, you're wrong" motivations and=20
self-righteous judgementalism can also be exhibited by those who eschew any=20=
kind of=20
spirituality. In the shakuhachi community there are both beginners and adv=
anced=20
players who express (sometimes undisguised) disdain and contempt for a=20
spiritual understanding of shakuhachi music, Zen or otherwise. Some of the=
se folks=20
(not all) apparently believe only in material reality, reason, craftsmanship=
=20
and scientism (the belief that there is one and only one method of science o=
r=20
reasoning and that it alone confers legitimacy and meaning). For some of t=
hem,=20
who has played the longest, who can play the fastest sankyoku or who has the=
=20
most CDs is the "one-up" move, and for some, who can make the most accurate=20
Tsu meri is the one who "wins". Is one-upmanship a satisfying way to live=
? =20
Naw!

I think it's great that some players on our list make the Zen connection, or=
=20
any other spiritual connection they want to make. And I think it's fine th=
at=20
we have expert craftsmen and seasoned players who don't make a Zen=20
connection. I think it's fine Not to talk about Zen, and fine TO talk abou=
t Zen. I=20
appreciated hearing from Jeff Cairns that only rarely do Japanese shakuhachi=
=20
teachers think of their playing as a Zen practice. Let's call each other on=
=20
cliches and romantic projections. On the other hand, whether or not Japane=
se=20
teachers practice Zen has nothing to do with whether any of us might take up=
the=20
shakuhachi as a Zen practice. This is a democracy, not the territory of=20
zealot Ayatollahs who require a party line. =20

Let a ten thousand flowers bloom, but I do think that democracy isn't enough=
.=20
I don't think it really works if people are mean-spirited engaging in=20
put-down's, judgementalism and condescension. Generally speaking, I think=20=
that=20
the folks on this newslist are civil to one another. We may not ever meet=20=
in=20
person, but I think that it's more pleasant when we expect the best from eac=
h=20
other and support each other instead of scanning messages to see how we can=20
one-up one another. (In writing this, I fear that I will now be accused of=
=20
one-upping the one-uppers; and I don't know how to escape the merry-go-round=
). =20

All spiritual paths have their shadow side, but most of the major religions=20
and spiritual paths do require that one live by a set of ethical principles=20=
in=20
community. In Zen Buddhism (and therefore, for serious Sui-Zen=20
practitioners), we have the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold path as a gu=
ideline. One=20
element of the path is right speech. Right speech is a discipline that=20
requires a thorough-going self-examination of one's motives when one speaks=20=
(or=20
listens). Zen is not just about being clever at what Peter calls "brain=20
twisting talk". It's a way to live. =20

I don't agree with Peter that shakuhachi players who talk about Zen on our=20
community list are necessarily beginner shakuhachi players and I don't agree=
=20
that all Zen contributions are merely grand-standing. In Zen, words, conce=
pts=20
and theories can be a way to avoid reality or to accomplish certain ego-goal=
s,=20
but sometimes, the right word, koan or story can bring insight or a flash of=
=20
wisdom and bring a healing. Zen is not about putting words down or raising=
=20
them up. Everything depends on the moment, the motive and the milieu. If=
one=20
practices from within the Buddhist context of Sui-Zen, then one is obliged t=
o=20
respect the spiritual dimension of the shakuhachi, and to focus not only on=20
the correct pitch, but also upon the moment, the motive and the milieu. If=
=20
one is not a Sui-Zen practitioner, one isn't obliged to reflect upon these=20
contextual dimensions of body, ethics, spirit and soul. Each player must d=
ecide,=20
and players of both types subscribe to this list.

The guidelines for contributions to our shakuhachi newslist are extremely=20
broad, and that's fine, as long as people try to be a little forgiving. We=
're=20
all busy fellas (where are the women?). It's up to each of us to monitor o=
ur=20
behavior-in-community and to simply delete what is "tiresome", threatening,=20=
or=20
irrelevant. I am sometimes irked by the strong, self-righteous opinions=20
expressed by some in our community, but I hang in there because we have such=
rich=20
diversity, and the comments often force me to be more open to others and to=20
my ignorance and prejudices.

Thanks,
Jonas

--part1_196.281a9e64.2daac58f_boundary

<HTML><HTML> 
In a message dated 4/11/04 3:38:20 AM, shakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu Pet=
er Ross writes: 
 
 
<BLOCKQUOTE CITE STYLE=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;=20=
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px" TYPE=3D"CITE">It doesn't do any good to=20=
get too serious about the zen connection to shakuhachi. 
I think the overly serious ones are mostly beginning players who get 
caught up in trying to out-zen each other.=A0 They need to be poked at 
a bit.=A0 Some of us have been playing for over 30 years now and it 
gets tiresome to hear all that brain twisting talk.=A0 You have to put 
in many years and thousands of hours.=A0 There's no way around it. 
</BLOCKQUOTE> 
 
Gr=
eetings.  I agree with Peter that one only gets better by actually pla=
ying the instrument.   I also agree with him that sometimes, what=
passes for serious Zen talk can be merely a disguised form of machismo peac=
ocking.  This masculine strutting can be hidden in the talk of anyone=20=
who is on a spiritual path--Buddhist, Jewish, Christian, New Age, Muslim or=20=
whatever.  I'm up, you're down: Who has the biggest, deepest. . . .wha=
t?  My equanimity, wisdom, insight, peace, clarity, compassion or what=
ever! is deeper than yours.  
 
On the other hand, such "I'm right, you're wrong" motivations and self-right=
eous judgementalism can also be exhibited by those who eschew any kind of sp=
irituality.  In the shakuhachi community there are both beginners and=20=
advanced players who express (sometimes undisguised) disdain and contempt fo=
r a spiritual understanding of shakuhachi music, Zen or otherwise.  So=
me of these folks (not all) apparently believe only in material reality, rea=
son, craftsmanship and scientism (the belief that there is one and only one me=
thod of science or reasoning and that it alone confers legitimacy and meanin=
g).  For some of them, who has played the longest, who can play the fa=
stest sankyoku or who has the most CDs is the "one-up" move, and for some, w=
ho can make the most accurate Tsu meri is the one who "wins".   I=
s one-upmanship a satisfying way to live?   Naw! 
 
I think it's great that some players on our list make the Zen connection, or=
any other spiritual connection they want to make.  And I think it's f=
ine that we have expert craftsmen and seasoned players who don't make a Zen=20=
connection.  I think it's fine Not to talk about Zen, and fine TO talk=
about Zen.  I appreciated hearing from Jeff Cairns that only rarely d=
o Japanese shakuhachi teachers think of their playing as a Zen practice. Le=
t's call each other on cliches and romantic projections.  On the other=
hand, whether or not Japanese teachers practice Zen has nothing to do with=20=
whether any of us might take up the shakuhachi as a Zen practice.  Thi=
s is a democracy, not the territory of zealot Ayatollahs who require a party=
line.  
 
Let a ten thousand flowers bloom, but I do think that democracy isn't enough=
.  I don't think it really works if people are mean-spirited engaging=20=
in put-down's, judgementalism and condescension.  Generally speaking,=20=
I think that the folks on this newslist are civil to one another.  We=20=
may not ever meet in person, but I think that it's more pleasant when we exp=
ect the best from each other and support each other instead of scanning mess=
ages to see how we can one-up one another.  (In writing this, I fear t=
hat I will now be accused of one-upping the one-uppers; and I don't know how=
to escape the merry-go-round).  
 
All spiritual paths have their shadow side, but most of the major religions=20=
and spiritual paths do require that one live by a set of ethical principles=20=
in community.  In Zen Buddhism (and therefore, for serious Sui-Zen pra=
ctitioners), we have the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold path as a guide=
line.  One element of the path is right speech.  Right speech is=
a discipline that requires a thorough-going self-examination of one's motiv=
es when one speaks (or listens).  Zen is not just about being clever a=
t what Peter calls "brain twisting talk".  It's a way to live. &n=
bsp; 
 
I don't agree with Peter that shakuhachi players who talk about Zen on our c=
ommunity list are necessarily beginner shakuhachi players and I don't agree=20=
that all Zen contributions are merely grand-standing.  In Zen, words,=20=
concepts and theories can be a way to avoid reality or to accomplish certain=
ego-goals, but sometimes, the right word, koan or story can bring insight o=
r a flash of wisdom and bring a healing.  Zen is not about putting wor=
ds down or raising them up.  Everything depends on the moment, the mot=
ive and the milieu.  If one practices from within the Buddhist context=
of Sui-Zen, then one is obliged to respect the spiritual dimension of the s=
hakuhachi, and to focus not only on the correct pitch, but also upon =
the momen=
t, the motive and the milieu.  If one is not a Sui-Zen practitioner, one=
isn't obliged to reflect upon these contextual dimensions of body, ethics,=20=
spirit and soul.  Each player must decide, and players of both types s=
ubscribe to this list. 
 
The guidelines for contributions to our shakuhachi newslist are extremely br=
oad, and that's fine, as long as people try to be a little forgiving. =20=
We're all busy fellas (where are the women?).  It's up to each of us=20=
to monitor our behavior-in-community and to simply delete what is "tiresome"=
, threatening, or irrelevant.  I am sometimes irked by the strong, sel=
f-righteous opinions expressed by some in our community, but I hang in there=
because we have such rich diversity, and the comments often force me to be=20=
more open to others and to my ignorance and prejudices. 
 
Thanks, 
Jonas</HTML>

--part1_196.281a9e64.2daac58f_boundary--
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Maybe reply: Peter Ross: "[Shaku] Re: shakuhachi V1 #570"
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