Here is a private exchange between Joel and myself,
which I thought might be of interest for possible
further discussion:
--- Joel Taylor <joel.g.taylor@comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi Justin,
[..]
> One way to think about the meri pitches is as a
> seperate 4th chord...
> So, let's say that Ro to Re is 498c = P4th and Ro to
> Chi is 702c = P5th,
> perhaps Tsu-no-meri to U is (S.B.) 498c = P4th and
> Tsu-no-meri to Ri-no-meri
> is 702c, no matter where Tsu-no-meri is placed...
> In other words, all three pitches should move up and
> down together with each
> other.
> Does that make any sense? If you play tsunomeri
> super flat, only a shade
> above Ro, you do the same thing with the other two,
> and that way you have a
> "good P4th and good P5th" in that "chord"....
Hi Joel
I certainly agree with the important
relationship with at least u and tsu-meri. Not sure
about with ri-meri though. I always felt that was
somehow a bit different. I feel the important
relationship to be between ro itself and tsu-meri. And
then re with u. Rather than say that tsu-meri and u
are related, I would more think of "the interval
between ro and tsu-meri" and "the interval between re
and u" to be related. Then ri-meri would come in as
being related to the 2 previous by "the interval
between chi and ri-meri".
This though breaks down in the ancient Meian pieces at
least as I have learned them, as the interval between
ro and tsu-meri is considerably larger than the
interval between u and u and re. So, maybe this idea
is only appropriate with our modern style?
>
> That is not was Koga sensei is suggesting of course.
> Koga seems to think that there is something else
> going on...
>
>
> Have you noticed that
> the Insen (Urban) scale that Malm lists in his book
> on Japanese music is =
> Ro, Tsu-no-meri, Re; Chi, Ri-no-meri, Ro, is
> a scale formed from 2 identical disjunct
> tetrachords? i.e.= m2,M3;M2;m2,M3
>
> <I imagine you may know already that most of the
> ancient Greek scales are
> composed to two disjunct tetrachords, but one never
> knows...this is weird
> stuff that a lot of people don't think about any
> more, much less is it
> taught in the normal course of things>
>
> Now if you take that same Insen scale and transpose
> it up a P4th, you get
> Re, U, Ri; Ro, Tsu-no-meri, Ri..., again =
> m2,M3;M2;m2,M3.
>
> Most Sankyoku pieces are in one of these scales,
> basically.
>
> Most folk tunes that are not in one of these are in
> the
> "Rural" scale = Ro,Tsu, Re, Chi, Ri, ro.
>
> If you combine all 3 of these you get what I think
> of as the full gamut of
> the "later" shakuhachi 'honkyoku' pieces. Most Koten
> pieces do not use the
> full gamut, but many of the later ones do...
>
> cheers, hope this is helpful!
>
> joel
---------
Then,
--- Joel Taylor <joel.g.taylor@comcast.net> wrote:
I certainly agree with the important
relationship with at least u and tsu-meri. Not sure
about with ri-meri though. I always felt that was
somehow a bit different. I feel the important
relationship to be between ro itself and tsu-meri. And
then re with u. Rather than say that tsu-meri and u
are related, I would more think of "the interval
between ro and tsu-meri" and "the interval between re
and u" to be related. Then ri-meri would come in as
being related to the 2 previous by "the interval
between chi and ri-meri".
This though breaks down in the ancient Meian pieces at
least as I have learned them, as the interval between
ro and tsu-meri is considerably larger than the
interval between u and u and re. So, maybe this idea
is only appropriate with our modern style?
Alas the bottom line is that this is all speculation.
Unless we can
find
recordings of players dating back to the dawn of
recording we have a
very
limited history to work with....there's no way that we
can settle what
the
historical tunings were without either text from that
period or direct
access to a recording.
But it is easy for me to believe that what you say
about the relative
size
of the minor 2nds between ro and tsu-no-meri and re
and U.
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
_____________________________________________
List un/subscription information is at:
http://communication.ucsd.edu/shaku/listsub.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Fri Jan 06 2006 - 10:00:47 PST