Re: [Shaku] Re: Concert quality?

Hi Bruce
Well, your anonymous source there was talking about
concert pitch at 442, and you yourself at 440. So
there's the first discrepancy. I heard the current
norm is more often A =3D 442Hz, though also 440 and 445
being used (which is really most common I don't know),
varying from orchestra to orchestra. So don't get to
thinking there is some obsolutely fixed standard. It
comes down to personal choice in the end, of the
group. In the past it was even less standardized.
Apparently Handel used 422.5, Bach 480. Modern Baroque
players set their standard at 415.
The first standardizations to take place were, I
think, in the 19th century, in France A =3D 435Hz, and
in England A =3D 452Hz, later in 1896 changing to
439.440 became the standard only in the middle of the
20th century, and, since then continues to creep up.

So that's just to suggest "concert pitch" could be a
variety of things in European orchestras, even now but
more so when those shakuhachi in question were made.=20

Secondly, I don't see any connection myself in
"concert quality" and "concert pitch". Concert pitch
is just a name. One could play a concert in any pitch!
This is particularly so for Japanese music, for which
the koto and shamisen tune to the shakuhachi. There
have of course been concert for hundreds of years in
Japan. So there have been shakuhachi made and played
in concerts, in ensemble even in the late Edo period.
In that case, according to the taste of those players,
those shakuhachi must therefore have been "concert
quality".
I think what it comes down to is, does it sound nice?

Justin

--- Bruce Jones <bjones@weber.ucsd.edu> wrote:

>=20
>=20
> Got an off the list query that I thought worth
> bringing to the list.
> I've anonymized it because I didn't seek the
> originator's permission.
> I think the topic is interesting and actually
> welcome whatever can 'o=20
> worms it might open (as long as the discussion
> remains civil :-)
>=20
> >From user@somedomain.com Sun Nov 11 21:50:02 2007
> >
> >Can't help but ask about your phrase: 'These are
> both concert quality=20
> >instruments from the late 19th - early 20th C'
> >=20
> >At the risk of opening a can of worms (hence
> off-list), I had thought no one
> >got around to getting Shakuhachi to concert pitch
> until the middle of the
> >20th C. =20
> >
> >No doubt there were a few which happened to be
> pitched at concert pitch...
> >What is your understanding about when it was that
> Shakuhachi started to be
> >pitched to concert pitch i.e A=3D442Hz.
> >=20
> >I'm not just being deliberately pedantic, I would
> interpret 'Concert
> >quality' to mean can be played with other
> instruments in an ensemble, and in
> >this case most older flutes would not be suitable.
>=20
> I'm not sure exactly when makers started being
> really concerned with
> pitch, although I would suspect it was a good bit
> earlier than the
> mid-20thC. The Tozan school has many, many duets,
> trios, and
> quartets in it's repertiore and Tozan, whose
> notation timing and
> musical ideas are loosely based on Western music,
> would have picked=20
> up the Western scale from the beginning or shortly
> thereafter.
>=20
> A good number of older and komuso flutes I've seen
> are @ 440 or close.
> Peter Hill has brought a lot of old flutes through
> here that play at
> that pitch, and my teacher had a Komuso flute that
> he found in the barn
> of his house in Hida that played better (in terms of
> pitch) than his
> own concert flute.
>=20
> When I say "concert quality" and properly pitched I
> mean that if you
> play otsu-no-ro in pitch (@ A=3D440mHz) and then move
> up the scale on
> the flute, the notes will play at the proper
> intervals. =20
>=20
> Of course, the absolute pitch of a flute is a bit of
> an open question.
> These aren't pianos. How meri/kari you play will
> have an effect, as
> do other aspects of your embrochure. My claim is
> that, if you do
> your part, the flute will cooperate.
>=20
> Your point is also valid. There are far more
> shakuhachi out there that
> do not play in pitch, or even close to 440. In
> that, you're absolutely
> correct when you say that most old flutes are not
> well suited to playing
> in ensembles, particularly with Western instruments
> (one can always get
> the koto or shamisen player to tune to the
> shakuhachi).
>=20
> The pitch of the flutes I'm selling is one of the
> factors that makes
> them more interesting.
>=20
> bj
>=20
> -
>=20
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>=20
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>=20
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Received on Mon Nov 12 16:59 PST 2007