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You know, learning shakuhachi is such a demanding discipline, that, in the
beginning, a little personal adjustment to the ideal might be warranted. If
you are in pain, then part (probably a large part) of your concentration and
energy is being deflected from your blowing practice. However, there may
be a strong argument for following tradition when one's development is
sufficiently advanced.
Others have touched on the efficient breathing when in the traditional pose.
Probably more importantly, it's necessary to keep a straight spine so that
prana /chi, as well as the breath, can flow without obstruction. Any
posture that supports a straight spine would be sufficient. The additional
advantage of the lotus posture and the use of a seiza bench is that they
partially elevate the Coccygeal plexus off of the ground - thus limiting the
loss of prana from the lowest charka (into the earth). An out flowing of
prana also dilutes our concentration and internal energy, and therefore our
ability to go deep into meditation and / or blowing shak.
Personally, extreme pain in my knees was totally eliminated after I started
using a seiza bench.
Cheers - brian
----Original Message-----
From: Phil James [mailto:phil@sparklingbeatnik.com]
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 1:17 PM
To: Shakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu
Subject: Re: Sitting positions, tradition
I think the best position for shakuhachi is the one in which you're
actually blowing the flute instead of doing email.
That said, I believe seiza sitting is a strong position; like standing, it
allows the spine to be straight and the the belly extended so that the lungs
have plenty of room to expand. Of course, some of the best shakuhachi
players I know rarely sit seiza style.
If your legs fall asleep in seiza sitting or in cross-legged meditation
but you still want to do it, find a good Thai massage practitioner and have
them show you the "blood stop" move on the upper thighs, which should
eventually take care of that problem. (Thai massage was invented FOR the
monks, so it has a number of features that are especially beneficial to
meditative practice.)
OK, enough email, back to blowing in my favorite position, lying on my
back.
----- Original Message -----
From: Derek Choice
To: Shakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: Sitting positions, tradition
Hey Brett...
I am sure this topic will open up a huge thread of viewpoints, and
that's a good thing. It's been a little slow recently anyway.
I do agree that the primary approach to meditation should be on one's
own terms, since it's benefits are intrinsicly unique to each one us. For
me , I would say 70% of my 3-4 hour per day practice is spent reclined back
in a chair, with my feet up, working on my embouchure for specific notes,
grace notes, learning the notation, etc. I do, though, make a conscious
effort to assure that the vertical positioning of the flute is in-line with
how it will be in the sitting position, so the learning won't have to be
shifted when sitting.
Since I have chosen to approach the Shakuhachi completely, the other 30%
is spent in the traditional position and sitting upright. For my very
novice abilities, I do notice a little difference in something when in the
Seiza. It is probably subjectively perceived, but nonetheless, the body of
tone and encompassing mood seem more pronounced. That is, until I have to
wiggle blood back into my legs, thus your point.
I wonder if it is "tradition only", and not factual, when a specific
alignment of the body helps to move things beyond our physical state, be it
"chakras", or whatever (a bit out of my element here). If even for fleeting
moments here and there during pratice, I think the traditional approach is
worth exploring for every individual seeking a potential something that may
be gradually disappearing in our modern, sometimes misdirected cultures.
Meaning, maybe there is a very valid, non-cultural reason certain sitting
positions were adopted. Honestly, I don't know, but yourself and many
others undoubtedly have far more meditation and instrument experience than I
do, and probably understand things much more clearly.
I do enjoy the pursuit and, so far, the lttle gifts along the path. I
agree, if physical pain becomes an issue, change what you are doing and find
another way. Let the instrument be the guide.
:)
Humbly,
dvc
--------------------------------------------------
Derek Choice
http://home.earthlink.net/~soundwave1
(New Shakuhachi Links Page 08/02)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Bud
To: Shakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 7:21 AM
Subject: RE: Seiza sitting position... ouch... "Hello, legs?"
I won't get into it in detail and will avoid a long rant, but I think
it is
time to let go of the militaristic approach and sit in comfortable
positions
that are not physically damaging or painful, and allow students to
enjoy the
meditation practices...
If this means letting go of some traditional forms, my apologies to
some of
the more insistent teachers, but over 30 years of practice and
watching the
physical damage and negative impact on meditation practice to many
students
has convinced me that this is necessary, at least in the West.
Meditation practice should not be about pain in the legs. We should
practice
meditation because it feels good and improves the quality of our
lives...
pain is a natural warning that something is wrong in our approach.
Brett "Bud" Breitwieser (brettb@rajah.com)
Zen Site: http://zenbud.com
Rajah Networking: http://rajah.net
Walking, Trike, Greens: http://rajah.ws
The Dragon: http://rajah.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Stevenson [mailto:dave.stevenson@durham.ac.uk]
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 3:48 AM
To: Shakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu
Subject: Re: Seiza sitting position... ouch... "Hello, legs?"
Derek Choice / Funk Logic wrote:
>
> snip
>
> Does the proper positioning of a pillow, or any other technique,
seem
> to allow progress and a conditioning for this position? Or, do a
lot
> of players eventually migrate to a chair for most practice sessions?
> Alternatives?
>
a cushion(zafu) helps or you can easily make (or buy) a seiza bench.
http://www.zenmtnemp.com/sitting_benches.htm
but in the end its just a matter of getting used to it. Knee walking
(suwari waza?) helps but
this may be just because sitting seiza is a relief after doing knee
walking!
____________________________________________________
<a
____________________________________________________
<a
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charset="iso-8859-1"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D165381623-13082002>You=20
know, learning shakuhachi is such a demanding discipline, that, in the=20
beginning, a little personal adjustment to the ideal might be =
warranted. =20
If you are in pain, then part (probably a large part) of your =
concentration and=20
energy is being deflected from your blowing practice. =
However,=20
there may be a strong argument for following tradition when one's =
development is=20
sufficiently advanced.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D165381623-13082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D165381623-13082002>Others=20
have touched on the efficient breathing when in the traditional =
pose. =20
Probably more importantly, it's necessary to keep a straight spine so =
that prana=20
/chi, as well as the breath, can flow without obstruction. Any =
posture=20
that supports a straight spine would be sufficient. The additional =
advantage of the lotus posture and the use of a seiza bench is that they =
partially elevate the Coccygeal plexus off of the ground - thus limiting =
the loss of prana from the lowest charka (into the earth). An =
out=20
flowing of prana also dilutes our concentration and internal energy, and =
therefore our ability to go deep into meditation and / or blowing=20
shak.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D165381623-13082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D165381623-13082002>Personally, extreme pain in my knees was =
totally=20
eliminated after I started using a seiza bench</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D165381623-13082002><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
face=3DArial>.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D165381623-13082002>Cheers=20
- brian</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D165381623-13082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D165381623-13082002> </SPAN>----Original =
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
Phil James [mailto:phil@sparklingbeatnik.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, =
August 12,=20
2002 1:17 PM<BR><B>To:</B> =
Shakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B>=20
Re: Sitting positions, tradition<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I think the best position for =
shakuhachi is the=20
one in which you're actually blowing the flute instead of doing=20
email.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>That said, I believe seiza sitting is =
a strong=20
position; like standing, it allows the spine to be straight and =
the the=20
belly extended so that the lungs have plenty of room to expand. Of=20
course</FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>, some of the best shakuhachi =
players I=20
know rarely sit seiza style.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If your legs fall asleep in seiza =
sitting or in=20
cross-legged meditation but you still want to do it, find a good =
Thai=20
massage practitioner and have them show you the "blood stop" move on =
the upper=20
thighs, which should eventually take care of that problem. (Thai =
massage was=20
invented FOR the monks, so it has a number of features that are =
especially=20
beneficial to meditative practice.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>OK, enough email, back to blowing in =
my favorite=20
position, lying on my back.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:dvc@funklogic.com" title=3Ddvc@funklogic.com>Derek =
Choice</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:Shakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu"=20
=
title=3DShakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu>Shakuhachi@communication.ucsd.e=
du</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 12, 2002 =
9:55=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Sitting =
positions,=20
tradition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hey Brett...<BR><BR>I am sure this =
topic will=20
open up a huge thread of viewpoints, and that's a good =
thing. It's been=20
a little slow recently anyway.<BR><BR>I do agree that the primary =
approach=20
to meditation should be on one's own terms, since it's benefits are=20
intrinsicly unique to each one us. For me , I would say 70% of =
my 3-4=20
hour per day practice is spent reclined back in a chair, with my =
feet up,=20
working on my embouchure for specific notes, grace notes, learning =
the=20
notation, etc. I do, though, make a conscious effort to assure =
that=20
the vertical positioning of the flute is in-line with how it will be =
in the=20
sitting position, so the learning won't have to be shifted when=20
sitting.<BR><BR>Since I have chosen to approach the Shakuhachi =
completely,=20
the other 30% is spent in the traditional position and sitting=20
upright. For my very novice abilities, I do notice a little =
difference=20
in <EM>something </EM>when in the Seiza. It is probably subjectively =
perceived, but nonetheless, the body of tone and encompassing =
mood seem=20
more pronounced. That is, until I have to wiggle blood back =
into my=20
legs, thus your point.<BR><BR>I wonder if it is "tradition only", =
and not=20
factual, when a specific alignment of the body helps to move things =
beyond=20
our physical state, be it "chakras", or whatever (a bit out of my =
element=20
here). If even for fleeting moments here and there during =
pratice, I=20
think the traditional approach is worth exploring for every =
individual=20
seeking a potential something that may be gradually disappearing in =
our=20
modern, sometimes misdirected cultures. Meaning, maybe there =
is a very=20
valid, non-cultural reason certain sitting positions were =
adopted. =20
Honestly, I don't know, but yourself and many others undoubtedly =
have far=20
more meditation and instrument experience than I do, and probably =
understand=20
things much more clearly.<BR><BR>I do enjoy the pursuit and, so far, =
the=20
lttle gifts along the path. I agree, if physical pain becomes =
an=20
issue, change what you are doing and find another way. Let the =
instrument be the=20
=
guide.<BR><BR>:)<BR><BR>Humbly,<BR><BR>dvc<BR><BR></FONT>----------------=
----------------------------------<BR>Derek=20
Choice<BR><A=20
=
href=3D"http://home.earthlink.net/~soundwave1">http://home.earthlink.net/=
~soundwave1</A><BR>(New=20
Shakuhachi Links Page=20
=
08/02)<BR>---------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------------</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:bud@rajah.com" title=3Dbud@rajah.com>Bud</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:Shakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu"=20
=
title=3DShakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu>Shakuhachi@communication.ucsd.e=
du</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 12, =
2002 7:21=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Seiza sitting=20
position... ouch... "Hello, legs?"</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I won't get into it in detail and will avoid a long =
rant,=20
but I think it is<BR>time to let go of the militaristic approach =
and sit=20
in comfortable positions<BR>that are not physically damaging or =
painful,=20
and allow students to enjoy the<BR>meditation =
practices...<BR><BR>If this=20
means letting go of some traditional forms, my apologies to some =
of<BR>the=20
more insistent teachers, but over 30 years of practice and =
watching=20
the<BR>physical damage and negative impact on meditation practice =
to many=20
students<BR>has convinced me that this is necessary, at least in =
the=20
West.<BR><BR>Meditation practice should not be about pain in the =
legs. We=20
should practice<BR>meditation because it feels good and improves =
the=20
quality of our lives...<BR>pain is a natural warning that =
something is=20
wrong in our approach.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Brett "Bud" Breitwieser =
(<A=20
href=3D"mailto:brettb@rajah.com">brettb@rajah.com</A>)<BR>Zen =
Site: <A=20
href=3D"http://zenbud.com">http://zenbud.com><BR>Rajah =
Networking: <A=20
href=3D"http://rajah.net">http://rajah.net><BR>Walking, Trike, =
Greens: <A=20
href=3D"http://rajah.ws">http://rajah.ws><BR>The Dragon: <A=20
=
href=3D"http://rajah.org">http://rajah.org><BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Origin=
al=20
Message-----<BR>From: Dave Stevenson [<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:dave.stevenson@durham.ac.uk">mailto:dave.stevenson@durham.=
ac.uk</A>]<BR>Sent:=20
Monday, August 12, 2002 3:48 AM<BR>To: <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:Shakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu">Shakuhachi@communicatio=
n.ucsd.edu</A><BR>Subject:=20
Re: Seiza sitting position... ouch... "Hello,=20
legs?"<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Derek Choice / Funk Logic=20
wrote:<BR><BR>><BR>> snip<BR>><BR>> Does the proper=20
positioning of a pillow, or any other technique, seem<BR>> to =
allow=20
progress and a conditioning for this position? Or, do a =
lot<BR>>=20
of players eventually migrate to a chair for most practice=20
sessions?<BR>> Alternatives?<BR>><BR><BR>a cushion(zafu) =
helps or=20
you can easily make (or buy) a seiza bench.<BR> <A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.zenmtnemp.com/sitting_benches.htm">http://www.zenmtnem=
p.com/sitting_benches.htm</A><BR><BR>but=20
in the end its just a matter of getting used to it. Knee=20
walking<BR>(suwari waza?) helps but<BR>this may be just because =
sitting=20
seiza is a relief after doing=20
=
knee<BR>walking!<BR><BR>_________________________________________________=
___<BR>By=20
default, replies to this message will go to the whole =
list.<BR>Please=20
check the To: line to make sure your reply is going to =
the<BR>appropriate=20
recipient(s).<BR><BR>To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change your=20
subscription data=20
=
goto:<BR><a<BR>href=3D"http://communication.ucsd.edu:88/guest/RemoteLi=
stSummary/shakuhachi"><BR><A=20
=
A></a><BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________=
___<BR>By=20
default, replies to this message will go to the whole =
list.<BR>Please=20
check the To: line to make sure your reply is going to =
the<BR>appropriate=20
recipient(s).<BR><BR>To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change your=20
subscription data goto:<BR><a=20
=
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