Re: Sitting positions, tradition

From: Phil James (phil@sparklingbeatnik.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 2002 - 10:16:34 PDT


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I think the best position for shakuhachi is the one in which you're =
actually blowing the flute instead of doing email.

That said, I believe seiza sitting is a strong position; like standing, =
it allows the spine to be straight and the the belly extended so that =
the lungs have plenty of room to expand. Of course, some of the best =
shakuhachi players I know rarely sit seiza style.

If your legs fall asleep in seiza sitting or in cross-legged meditation =
but you still want to do it, find a good Thai massage practitioner and =
have them show you the "blood stop" move on the upper thighs, which =
should eventually take care of that problem. (Thai massage was invented =
FOR the monks, so it has a number of features that are especially =
beneficial to meditative practice.)

OK, enough email, back to blowing in my favorite position, lying on my =
back.

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Derek Choice=20
  To: Shakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu=20
  Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 9:55 AM
  Subject: Re: Sitting positions, tradition

  Hey Brett...

  I am sure this topic will open up a huge thread of viewpoints, and =
that's a good thing. It's been a little slow recently anyway.

  I do agree that the primary approach to meditation should be on one's =
own terms, since it's benefits are intrinsicly unique to each one us. =
For me , I would say 70% of my 3-4 hour per day practice is spent =
reclined back in a chair, with my feet up, working on my embouchure for =
specific notes, grace notes, learning the notation, etc. I do, though, =
make a conscious effort to assure that the vertical positioning of the =
flute is in-line with how it will be in the sitting position, so the =
learning won't have to be shifted when sitting.

  Since I have chosen to approach the Shakuhachi completely, the other =
30% is spent in the traditional position and sitting upright. For my =
very novice abilities, I do notice a little difference in something when =
in the Seiza. It is probably subjectively perceived, but nonetheless, =
the body of tone and encompassing mood seem more pronounced. That is, =
until I have to wiggle blood back into my legs, thus your point.

  I wonder if it is "tradition only", and not factual, when a specific =
alignment of the body helps to move things beyond our physical state, be =
it "chakras", or whatever (a bit out of my element here). If even for =
fleeting moments here and there during pratice, I think the traditional =
approach is worth exploring for every individual seeking a potential =
something that may be gradually disappearing in our modern, sometimes =
misdirected cultures. Meaning, maybe there is a very valid, =
non-cultural reason certain sitting positions were adopted. Honestly, I =
don't know, but yourself and many others undoubtedly have far more =
meditation and instrument experience than I do, and probably understand =
things much more clearly.

  I do enjoy the pursuit and, so far, the lttle gifts along the path. I =
agree, if physical pain becomes an issue, change what you are doing and =
find another way. Let the instrument be the guide.

  :)

  Humbly,

  dvc

  --------------------------------------------------
  Derek Choice
  http://home.earthlink.net/~soundwave1
  (New Shakuhachi Links Page 08/02)
  =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------
    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Bud=20
    To: Shakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu=20
    Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 7:21 AM
    Subject: RE: Seiza sitting position... ouch... "Hello, legs?"

    I won't get into it in detail and will avoid a long rant, but I =
think it is
    time to let go of the militaristic approach and sit in comfortable =
positions
    that are not physically damaging or painful, and allow students to =
enjoy the
    meditation practices...

    If this means letting go of some traditional forms, my apologies to =
some of
    the more insistent teachers, but over 30 years of practice and =
watching the
    physical damage and negative impact on meditation practice to many =
students
    has convinced me that this is necessary, at least in the West.

    Meditation practice should not be about pain in the legs. We should =
practice
    meditation because it feels good and improves the quality of our =
lives...
    pain is a natural warning that something is wrong in our approach.

    Brett "Bud" Breitwieser (brettb@rajah.com)
    Zen Site: http://zenbud.com
    Rajah Networking: http://rajah.net
    Walking, Trike, Greens: http://rajah.ws
    The Dragon: http://rajah.org

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Dave Stevenson [mailto:dave.stevenson@durham.ac.uk]
    Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 3:48 AM
    To: Shakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu
    Subject: Re: Seiza sitting position... ouch... "Hello, legs?"

    Derek Choice / Funk Logic wrote:

>
> snip
>
> Does the proper positioning of a pillow, or any other technique, =
seem
> to allow progress and a conditioning for this position? Or, do a =
lot
> of players eventually migrate to a chair for most practice =
sessions?
> Alternatives?
>

    a cushion(zafu) helps or you can easily make (or buy) a seiza bench.
     http://www.zenmtnemp.com/sitting_benches.htm

    but in the end its just a matter of getting used to it. Knee walking
    (suwari waza?) helps but
    this may be just because sitting seiza is a relief after doing knee
    walking!

    ____________________________________________________

    <a
    =
hi">
    =

    ____________________________________________________

    <a =
hi">
    =

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I think the best position for =
shakuhachi is the one=20
in which you're actually blowing the flute instead of doing =
email.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>That said, I believe seiza sitting is a =
strong=20
position; like standing, it&nbsp;allows the spine to be straight and the =
the=20
belly extended so that the lungs have plenty of room to expand. Of=20
course</FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>, some of the best shakuhachi =
players I=20
know rarely sit seiza style.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If your legs fall asleep in seiza =
sitting or in=20
cross-legged meditation but you still want to do it,&nbsp;find a good =
Thai=20
massage practitioner and have them show you the "blood stop" move on the =
upper=20
thighs, which should eventually take care of that problem. (Thai massage =
was=20
invented FOR the monks, so it has a number of features that are =
especially=20
beneficial&nbsp;to meditative practice.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>OK, enough email, back to blowing in my =
favorite=20
position, lying on my back.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Ddvc@funklogic.com href=3D"mailto:dvc@funklogic.com">Derek =
Choice</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  title=3DShakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:Shakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu">Shakuhachi@communicatio=
n.ucsd.edu</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 12, 2002 =
9:55=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Sitting positions, =

  tradition</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hey Brett...<BR><BR>I am sure this =
topic will=20
  open up a huge thread of viewpoints, and that's a good =
thing.&nbsp;It's been a=20
  little slow recently anyway.<BR><BR>I do agree that the primary =
approach to=20
  meditation should be on one's own terms, since it's benefits are =
intrinsicly=20
  unique to each one us.&nbsp; For me , I would say 70% of my 3-4 hour =
per day=20
  practice is spent reclined back in a chair, with my feet up, working =
on my=20
  embouchure for specific notes, grace notes, learning the notation, =
etc.&nbsp;=20
  I do, though, make a conscious effort to assure that the vertical =
positioning=20
  of the flute is in-line with how it will be in the sitting position, =
so the=20
  learning won't have to be shifted when sitting.<BR><BR>Since I have =
chosen to=20
  approach the Shakuhachi completely, the other 30% is spent in the =
traditional=20
  position and sitting upright.&nbsp; For my very novice abilities, I do =
notice=20
  a little difference in <EM>something </EM>when in the Seiza. It is =
probably=20
  subjectively perceived, but nonetheless, the body of tone and =
encompassing=20
  mood&nbsp;seem more pronounced.&nbsp; That is, until I have to wiggle =
blood=20
  back into my legs, thus your point.<BR><BR>I wonder if it is =
"tradition only",=20
  and not factual, when a specific alignment of the body helps to move =
things=20
  beyond our physical state, be it "chakras", or whatever (a bit out of =
my=20
  element here).&nbsp; If even for fleeting moments here and there =
during=20
  pratice, I think the traditional approach is worth exploring for every =

  individual seeking a potential something that may be gradually =
disappearing in=20
  our modern, sometimes misdirected cultures.&nbsp; Meaning, maybe there =
is a=20
  very valid, non-cultural reason certain sitting positions were =
adopted.&nbsp;=20
  Honestly, I don't know, but yourself and many others undoubtedly have =
far more=20
  meditation and instrument experience than I do, and probably =
understand things=20
  much more clearly.<BR><BR>I do enjoy the pursuit and, so far, the =
lttle gifts=20
  along the path.&nbsp; I agree, if physical pain becomes an issue, =
change what=20
  you are doing and find another way.&nbsp; Let the instrument be the=20
  =
guide.<BR><BR>:)<BR><BR>Humbly,<BR><BR>dvc<BR><BR></FONT>----------------=
----------------------------------<BR>Derek=20
  Choice<BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://home.earthlink.net/~soundwave1">http://home.earthlink.net/=
~soundwave1</A><BR>(New=20
  Shakuhachi Links Page=20
  =
08/02)<BR>---------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------------</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A title=3Dbud@rajah.com href=3D"mailto:bud@rajah.com">Bud</A> =
</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
    title=3DShakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:Shakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu">Shakuhachi@communicatio=
n.ucsd.edu</A>=20
    </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 12, 2002 =
7:21=20
    AM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Seiza sitting =
position...=20
    ouch... "Hello, legs?"</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>I won't get into it in detail and will avoid a long =
rant, but=20
    I think it is<BR>time to let go of the militaristic approach and sit =
in=20
    comfortable positions<BR>that are not physically damaging or =
painful, and=20
    allow students to enjoy the<BR>meditation practices...<BR><BR>If =
this means=20
    letting go of some traditional forms, my apologies to some of<BR>the =
more=20
    insistent teachers, but over 30 years of practice and watching=20
    the<BR>physical damage and negative impact on meditation practice to =
many=20
    students<BR>has convinced me that this is necessary, at least in the =

    West.<BR><BR>Meditation practice should not be about pain in the =
legs. We=20
    should practice<BR>meditation because it feels good and improves the =
quality=20
    of our lives...<BR>pain is a natural warning that something is wrong =
in our=20
    approach.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Brett "Bud" Breitwieser (<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:brettb@rajah.com">brettb@rajah.com</A>)<BR>Zen Site: =
<A=20
    href=3D"http://zenbud.com">http://zenbud.com><BR>Rajah =
Networking: <A=20
    href=3D"
http://rajah.net">http://rajah.net><BR>Walking, Trike, =
Greens: <A=20
    href=3D"
http://rajah.ws">http://rajah.ws><BR>The Dragon: <A=20
    =
href=3D"
http://rajah.org">http://rajah.org><BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Origin=
al=20
    Message-----<BR>From: Dave Stevenson [<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:
dave.stevenson@durham.ac.uk">mailto:dave.stevenson@durham.=
ac.uk</A>]<BR>Sent:=20
    Monday, August 12, 2002 3:48 AM<BR>To: <A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:Shakuhachi@communication.ucsd.edu">Shakuhachi@communicatio=
n.ucsd.edu</A><BR>Subject:=20
    Re: Seiza sitting position... ouch... "Hello,=20
    legs?"<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Derek Choice / Funk Logic=20
    wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; snip<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Does the proper =
positioning=20
    of a pillow, or any other technique, seem<BR>&gt; to allow progress =
and a=20
    conditioning for this position?&nbsp; Or, do a lot<BR>&gt; of =
players=20
    eventually migrate to a chair for most practice sessions?<BR>&gt;=20
    Alternatives?<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>a cushion(zafu) helps or you can easily =
make=20
    (or buy) a seiza bench.<BR>&nbsp;<A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.zenmtnemp.com/sitting_benches.htm">http://www.zenmtnem=
p.com/sitting_benches.htm</A><BR><BR>but=20
    in the end its just a matter of getting used to it. Knee =
walking<BR>(suwari=20
    waza?) helps but<BR>this may be just because sitting seiza is a =
relief after=20
    doing=20
    =
knee<BR>walking!<BR><BR>_________________________________________________=
___<BR>By=20
    default, replies to this message will go to the whole =
list.<BR>Please check=20
    the To: line to make sure your reply is going to the<BR>appropriate=20
subscription=20
    data=20
    =
goto:<BR>&lt;a<BR>href=3D"http://communication.ucsd.edu:88/guest/RemoteLi=
stSummary/shakuhachi"&gt;<BR><A=20
    =
A>&lt;/a&gt;<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________=
___<BR>By=20
    default, replies to this message will go to the whole =
list.<BR>Please check=20
    the To: line to make sure your reply is going to the<BR>appropriate=20
subscription=20
    data goto:<BR>&lt;a=20
    =
hi"&gt;<BR><A=20
    =
A>&lt;/a&gt;<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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