RE: Kyorei

From: weaton15 (weaton15@cox.net)
Date: Sat Nov 22 2003 - 09:41:52 PST

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Re: KyoreiRonnie,

Are you sure you don't want to move back to Virginia? Sure could use a
teacher here.

Wayne
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Ronnie Nyogetsu Seldin [mailto:Nyogetsu@nyc.rr.com]
  Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 9:41 AM
  To: Bruce Jones
  Subject: Re: Kyorei

Hi Gene,

To put it simply, these are different pieces. The SAN KOTEN of the
Meian (or MYOAN) tradition, or three classical (oldest pieces) are KOKU,
MUKAIJI, and REIBO. As you have mentioned, "Mukaiji Reibo," "Shin No
Kyorei," and "Koku Reibo" are the KOTEN of the Kinko-Ryu. While sharing a
cultural History, musically and compositionally the Kinko-Ryu pieces are
quite different from the Fudaiji (Meian) pieces.

The Fudaiji line pieces (which is the Jin Nyodo notation that I use a=
s
well) , can be called "Kyorei (Fudaiji)" or "Fudai-ji: KYOREI", or just
plain Kyorei. Along with Mukaji and Koku (also Fudaiji line), these piece=
s
are not only much older than the previously listed Kinko-Ryu pieces, but
they are VERY different in every way.

The Kinko-Ryu piece is usually referred to as Shin Kyorei (which mean=
s
=93new=94 Kyorei). The other two KOTEN pieces having the added =93Reibo=94=
(memory
of the bell) is a reference , and in honor of- the bell that Fuke-Zenji
would play.

Kyotaku has been called the REAL oldest Honkyoku. Since it was lost
over the ages, the attempt to recreate it is KYOREI (or false bell, or em=
pty
bell).

The above is not the last word on these matters, only what my teacher
Kurahashi Yodo taught me.

The two people who have the best Academic understanding of all of the=
se
things (in my opinion) are Riley Lee and Ralph Samuelson. But I hope that=
I
have helped a bit !

Take Care,
Ronnie

Will some kind expert please set me straight here:

I am told "Mukaiji Reibo," "Shin No Kyorei," and "Koku Reibo" are
referred to as the three pieces of Bekkaku, or The Traditional Three, and
are the most important of the Kinko Ryu Honkyoku.

And I have read "Shin No Kyorei" is a Koten piece from the Kinko Ryu
school, also apparently sometimes known as "Kyotaku", from a story of tha=
t
same name. And I also see it referred to as "Kyorei (Fudaiji)" and
"Fudai-ji: KYOREI".
The International Shakuhachi Society, I note, refers to the piece as
"Shin Kyorei", without the Japanese connecting word "no".

And, finally, I am aware the Jin Nyodo #5 CD contains this masterful
piece, and I believe I have a copy of Jin Nyodo's notation here before me
now.

But here's my question: Every time I refer to the piece as "Shin No
Kyorei" I am abruptly corrected - without explanation - to "Kyorei."

If what Jin Nyodo has recorded in his CD #5 is NOT "Shin No Kyorei",
what happened to that piece? Where and when did it disappear? What is t=
he
musical difference between "Shin No Kyorei" and "Kyorei"? Why is it
incorrect for me to refer to the piece as "Shin No Kyorei?"

Thank you!

Gene

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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: Kyorei</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1276" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Ronnie,</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2> </DIV>
<DIV>Are=20
you sure you don't want to move back to Virginia?  Sure could use a =
teacher=20
here.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Wayne</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
 <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>-----Original Message----- From: Ronnie Nyogetsu =
Seldin=20
 [mailto:Nyogetsu@nyc.rr.com] Sent: Saturday, November 22, =
2003 9:41=20
 AM To: Bruce Jones Subject: Re:=20
Kyorei </DIV>
 <BLOCKQUOTE> Hi Gene, To put it =
simply, these=20
 are different pieces. The SAN KOTEN  of the Meian (or MYOAN) =
tradition,=20
 or three classical (oldest pieces) are KOKU, MUKAIJI, and REIBO. As =
you have=20
 mentioned,  "Mukaiji Reibo," "Shin No Kyorei," and "Koku Reibo" =
are the=20
 KOTEN of the Kinko-Ryu. While sharing a cultural History, musically =
and=20
 compositionally the Kinko-Ryu pieces are quite different from the =
Fudaiji=20
 (Meian) pieces. The Fudaiji line pieces (which is the Jin =
Nyodo=20
 notation that I use as well) , can be called  "Kyorei =
(Fudaiji)" or=20
 "Fudai-ji: KYOREI", or just plain Kyorei. Along with Mukaji and Koku =
(also=20
 Fudaiji line), these pieces are not only much older than the =
previously=20
 listed Kinko-Ryu pieces, but they are VERY different in every=20
 way. The Kinko-Ryu piece is usually referred to as Shin =
Kyorei (which=20
 means =93new=94 Kyorei). The other two KOTEN pieces having the added =
=93Reibo=94=20
 (memory of the bell) is a reference , and in honor of-  the =
bell that=20
 Fuke-Zenji would play. Kyotaku  has been called the REAL =
oldest=20
 Honkyoku. Since it was lost over the ages, the attempt to recreate =
it is=20
 KYOREI (or false bell, or empty bell). The above is not the =
last word=20
 on these matters, only what my teacher Kurahashi Yodo taught =
me. The=20
 two people who have the best Academic understanding of all of these =
things=20
 (in my opinion) are Riley Lee and Ralph Samuelson. But I hope that I =
have=20
 helped a bit ! Take Care, Ronnie Will some kind =
expert=20
 please set me straight here:   I am told "Mukaiji =
Reibo,"=20
 "Shin No Kyorei," and "Koku Reibo" are referred to as the three =
pieces of=20
 Bekkaku, or The Traditional Three, and are the most important of the =
Kinko=20
 Ryu Honkyoku.   And I have read "Shin No Kyorei" is a =
Koten=20
 piece from the Kinko Ryu school, also apparently sometimes known as=20
 "Kyotaku", from a story of that same name.  And I also see it =
referred=20
 to as "Kyorei (Fudaiji)" and "Fudai-ji: KYOREI". The =
International=20
 Shakuhachi Society, I note, refers to the piece as "Shin Kyorei", =
without=20
 the Japanese connecting word "no".   And, finally, I am =
aware the=20
 Jin Nyodo #5 CD contains this masterful piece, and I believe I have =
a copy=20
 of Jin Nyodo's notation here before me now.   But here's =
my=20
 question:  Every time I refer to the piece as "Shin No Kyorei" =
I am=20
 abruptly corrected - without explanation - to =
"Kyorei."   If what=20
 Jin Nyodo has recorded in his CD #5 is NOT "Shin No Kyorei", what =
happened=20
 to that piece?  Where and when did it disappear?  What is =
the=20
 musical difference between "Shin No Kyorei" and "Kyorei"?  Why =
is it=20
 incorrect for me to refer to the piece as "Shin No=20
 Kyorei?"   Thank=20
 you!   Gene </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT=20
face=3DHelvetica> </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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